Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Clutches, Chain & Belt Drives

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Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Sphere » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:21 am

Is anyone familiar with the Hitchcock beltdrive kit? 500 quid seems like a lot of money, but I'm wondering if anyone has first hand experiences.
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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Diesel Dave » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:19 am

Stu runs a belt drive primary on the Ruggerfield and I know Peter does on his Sommer Hatz, both are Rob North versions I think.

Rob will also make a custom front pulley to fit the 1" keyway shaft and if your not using the Enfield alternator then a slimline dry cover too.

Peter also has a belt final drive but retains the original sprockets underneath the pulleys!

It's a lot of cash for little weight savings....less effecient too.

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Sphere » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:41 am

It all sounded very interesting until you wrote "less efficient". Since efficiency will be key, I guess I will drop this idea. Must say it surprises me that they would use it in racers then, but maybe they have different requirements.
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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Crazymanneil » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:50 pm

Anyone any good info on setting up a belt drive? This is in a situation where engine and box are not mounted in any way (yet) so would need to take alignment and tensioning into account. Should something be movable so that tension can be adjusted? Or should there be a tensioner running on the back of the belt somewhere?

I guess I should go google...

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Diesel Dave » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:54 pm

Neil, I've never seen a tensioner being used on a belt drive but I suppose it's possible, it would have to be a rolling wheel of some sort.

I guess they never streach so the centre distance is fixed and i reakon there pretty tolerant of tension so long as it can't jump a tooth.

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Crazymanneil » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:59 pm

Cheers Dave,

Reason I asked is I have seen them on timing belts on car engines. Not sure what the logic is for choosing to run one or not. Maybe a factor of belt length and/or width. Just guessing.

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Diesel Dave » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:17 pm

Racers like 'em because there light and don't need an oiltight casing - makes for stripping and rebuilding much easier

I'd much prefer a single row chain like the early Nortons as this would allow for a really narrow primary, if it's a common chain size then replacing them regularly is easy and cheap.

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Sphere » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:21 pm

Oh well. I guess I can't get out of getting the measurements of the engine sprocket so I can order a 25 tooth taperlock version for the Hatz.
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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Stuart » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:24 pm

The belt clutch kit I got was a BNR one. Ended up not using most of it because I needed my own front pulley and clutch centre. I also opted for a wider 30mm setup because of the torque available to me.
I needed a running wheel tensioner underneath to take up the slack because my centres were fixed. They don't make a belt size I really needed.
The only annoying thing with the BNR clutch (which is a loverly bit of kit by the way) is that it's bearing loses it's grease after about 1000 miles. At this stage the cluch starts to drag and the whole thing has to come off because it doesn't run in oil anymore. I'm gonna fill it with high spec, high temp grease after my gearbox is sorted. The stuff I have on order has a high drop rate and so should 'stick around' a bit longer (2000-3000 miles longer according to the label).
Ideally I'd love to fit a thin, sealed bearing in there but it would have to have a dia of about 110mm. Does anyone know of a supplier of such thinks?
I did wonder whether I could fit a slim PTFE washer in there somewhere to stop the loss :roll:
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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by cumorglas » Sun May 10, 2009 12:33 pm

Stuart wrote:The belt clutch kit I got was a BNR one. Ended up not using most of it because I needed my own front pulley and clutch centre. I also opted for a wider 30mm setup because of the torque available to me.
I needed a running wheel tensioner underneath to take up the slack because my centres were fixed. They don't make a belt size I really needed.:
am i reading this correctly to see you using the BNR basket and plates but your own center?
are you using the same center to center as stock? and if you happen to know what is that measurement?

Stuart wrote: Ideally I'd love to fit a thin, sealed bearing in there but it would have to have a dia of about 110mm. Does anyone know of a supplier of such thinks?
I did wonder whether I could fit a slim PTFE washer in there somewhere to stop the loss :roll:
i don't know if you have enough room for this to help but when i was cutting up and modifying transfer cases on my jeep i needed what i was afraid was a custom shaft seal. when i walked into my auto parts place(the one i use is mostly for selling to auto repair shops they don't make it friendly for regular folks) and started to explain what i needed he handed me the seal catalogue and pointed me to the index by size instead of application. i found one with exactly the right dimensions. I think it was for a ford automatic transmission. cost me six dollars. eight years later it still keeps atf in the planetary part and 90 weight in the straight cut part. at least i think it does.
it was about 2 mm thick or so. one of the thinnest i could find.




grady

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by BoxerOtto » Sun May 10, 2009 2:13 pm

hey stuart, is it possible to drill & tap your aluminum housing for an external greese fitting so you can give your bearing a pump or two of greese every once & a while?
neil,sphere have you seen sam brumby's belt set up, seems inexpensive ,maybe he could give some advise or relate some of his experience of why he chose belt over chain primary drive.
good luck guy's which ever way you decide. mines not quite done yet and i don't want to put it up until its working because i'm not sure if it can handle the diesel. soon i hope.
otto.

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Sphere » Sun May 10, 2009 2:16 pm

Otto, no I haven't. Are any details published on the web?
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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Nanko » Sun May 10, 2009 2:54 pm

Crazymanneil wrote:Cheers Dave,

Reason I asked is I have seen them on timing belts on car engines. Not sure what the logic is for choosing to run one or not. Maybe a factor of belt length and/or width. Just guessing.

N
A tensioner makes the timingbelt much easier to mount , use the slack to get the timing
marks on the right place .
Another advantage is , when you place the tensioner close to the smallest sprocket there
are more teeth of the belt engaged.
In cars you will see the tensioner is usually mounted close to the (smallest) crankshaft sprocket
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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by BoxerOtto » Sun May 10, 2009 3:53 pm

sphere, i'm sure i have seen pictures of his drive somewhere on this site. i supose you could always try a private message to him or look up sbrumby on members list and look back at his posts. i'm trying to find them myself. i'll post where if i find them.

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Stuart » Sun May 10, 2009 7:50 pm

am i reading this correctly to see you using the BNR basket and plates but your own center?
are you using the same center to center as stock? and if you happen to know what is that measurement?
Cumorglas, yes I had to get another centre made and cut the internal teeth with a needle file :D I had an impossible time working out the centre to centre using formula from the net. I even had some engineers help and ended up with a bunch of wrong length belts. I got the nearest I could get and had to fit the pully which is fine. Once the gearbox gets fixed (another story altogether) I shall re-assemble as is for the rally hopefully. Ideally I think a 46T would have been about perfect up front giving me comfortably over 70mph but they don't make one. Instead I've got a 46T custom car blower cog from stateside and plan to shave down the 48T I have and slip it over some and secure it. If I'm lucky I may not need the tensioner at all. 1st gear will be slightly tall though pulling away I'm sure. Running a 44T a the mo.
I've put some higher temp grease on the loose ball bearings in the clutch and sealed the outer edge against the greease being expelled centrfugally. Thinking of fitting a rubber one on the inner but it may interfere with clutch operation.

Boxerotto, the guy who built the bike included an oil pipe/squirt type built into the new bearing carrier he made. It doesn't work to well and I could see he'd blocked it off. Even if it does work I'm not one of these ppl who fancy running their belt in oil :D

These shots show the new centre and the route the oil was supposed to go to lube the bearings. I think in reality it just got flung off. When I got the bike complete with original clutch (still with a modified centre) it was running in oil but used to slip all the time, even with new plates fitted. I'm just gonna have to regrease those bearings every few thou..
new centre.JPG
The new centre for the BNR clutch
oil bottle.JPG
OIl bottle in the side panel
primary plate oil hole behind clutch.JPG
Primary plate oil hole exit
carrier.jpg
where the oil was supposed to be squrted through
Attachments
BNR complete with new centre.JPG
The complete BNR clutch with new centre
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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by BoxerOtto » Mon May 11, 2009 2:08 am

hey stuart, wondering if you remember seeing sam brumbys pictures of his belt drive opened up on his vf. i thought i saw them on this site, he uses a double v-belt set up if i remember right. correct me if i'm wrong. its to bad you have to open up your drive every couple thousand to lube bearings, roughly how many k's did you put on it before it departed? wheel bearing grease seems to contain some of the properties you require,and probably not to expensive.

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Stuart » Mon May 11, 2009 12:10 pm

Using standard grease and with it able to be flung out it lasted about 1000 miles (the ride to Hamm and back). The new hight temp stuff promises to last 2-3k. I did once come across some stuff that was made to be sticky and I think this would be ideal but not sure of the name. My company got it in 20 years ago to keep rubber O rings in place. It was too sticky for that but maybe just right for the breaing application. Not sure what it was like with heat though.
If anyone knows their greases maybe they could track it down? The current Hi Temp stuff I got isn't any more sticky that normal grease. This other stuff was a nightmare to get off your hands. Just right maybe :?:
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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by sbrumby » Mon May 11, 2009 9:32 pm

Just to clarify matters on the drives on my two big bikes. I use double V belt on the 750 and triple on the 950. The 750 started life with chains these lasted 500miles and would stretch 1". Converted to V belt and no more problems. Chains have a particular problem in that the power stroke always happens at the same place, depending on cog size and chain length could be in the same place every time. On the Enfield with a duplex chain this is not much of an issue as it is 10hp and running in oil. Toothed belts have to put up with the same forces chains do but cope much better as they are basically made of rubber or similar and have some give. The 950 has done 6000 miles with no adjustment needed. On the question of a tensioner. You have to be exact (not easy) move the engine or move the box. Much easier to fit a tensioner, also as in previous post gives more wrap around small pulley. My belts on the 950 are special high temp spec but are still only about £6 each and are rated at 27000 hours at full power. So unless I get in the Guiness book of records I should never have to change them.
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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by BoxerOtto » Tue May 12, 2009 1:00 am

thank you sam.

otto
Last edited by BoxerOtto on Tue May 12, 2009 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by BoxerOtto » Tue May 12, 2009 1:16 am

stuart, bombardier (rotax) uses a grease in their 2-stroke snowmobile crankshaft bearings as they stop injecting oil at idle for emission purposes and provide no lube for the crank other than this special very expensive grease. it can withstand high rpm 9000 + and high heat for a very long time. it does not leave the bearing. the part # is 2935500201 isoflex grease, topas nb 52, and comes in a 50 gram tube. i don't know if you have any dealers in your area but it may well be the answer to your problem.

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Stuart » Tue May 12, 2009 11:35 am

Thanks for that info Otto. I can't remember what I bought but will post up the details when I can so you can see. At the moment the gearbox is what I'm concentrating on as the new internal shafts do not match the originals.

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Crazymanneil » Tue May 12, 2009 7:26 pm

Great thread guys thanks! Good info on the reason for tensioners on a car and whatnot too. Would love to see the pics of sbrumby's setup if they are about somewhere. Particularly timely for me as I am currently mounting gearbox into Tiger frame.

I know what you mean about calculating belt length being a pain! I found an excel spreadsheet thing for doing it but still to figure out how the heck it works and also work out the centre-centre distance I'd like. Anyone know of a simple calculator where you put in number of teeth on each pully, length of belt and pitch and then it tells you centre to centre distance?

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by sbrumby » Tue May 12, 2009 8:30 pm

Just type in "gates belts" into google you will get all the information you need.
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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Crazymanneil » Wed May 13, 2009 7:19 pm

sbrumby wrote:Just type in "gates belts" into google you will get all the information you need.
Superb. A few nights play ahead...

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by cumorglas » Thu May 14, 2009 2:52 am

thank you very much stuart and sam.

that was something i was thinking long about while in the tractor store today. while picking up tire plugs to fit ag tire size holes. i walked past the aisle of belts. the kevlar v-belts called out to me and said "i work on diesels 10 times the power of your yanclone. and i'm kevlar, and sexy blue rubber."

now what i am thinking is enfield center and steels. and either a dry harley basket and friction plates, or modify the wet kaw basket i have already to accept a sealed bearing find dry plates that will fit.

either basket option would then need a pair of vbelt pulleys of appropriate size affixed to it. weld in a jig?

v belt pulleys to fit the engine shaft cost almost nothing and belts 9.99$ in any of the sizes that are even close to what i need. a flat tensioner from one of jeep motors i'll never get around to rebuilding.

should do the trick.

I searched the forum for sam's posts. now i have to build a single wheel trailer. http://www.suckindiesel.com/thingy/view ... it=trailer

but i didn't find any pics of his clutch and primary setup. if anyone has them available i would love to look before i go much further.

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by sbrumby » Thu May 14, 2009 9:14 pm

I am not sure if I have any pics of the Yamaha belt setup, I dont think it would help anyway as it has a jackshaft as well to get the engine sprocket on the line of the BSA box. But what you might find interesting is how I did the pulleys on the box.
I put the clutch cage in the lathe and removed the cog. I then gave this to a friend with with an engineering shop. He made a rough unfinished double v belt pulley to fit, gave it back to me for me to weld on. This done and back to the shop and he then finished it to correct profile for the v belts. Another point the BSA clutch works just as well dry as wet. Hope this helps.
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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by oldbmw » Thu May 14, 2009 10:00 pm

When setting up a primary drive, if possible try to have the clutch sprocket and belt/chain with a primary number of teeth. This will greatly enhance life . as the engine sprocket is fixed to the crank it will always thump on the same teeth. These are usually made of very good steel.

Triumphs always did this, but seldom documented it. Also Tony Hayward 01244 830776 does belt drive conversions for Triumphs starting at £240. It is possible he might have parts that you may find useful.
Larry

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by cumorglas » Fri May 15, 2009 12:15 am

sbrumby wrote:I am not sure if I have any pics of the Yamaha belt setup, I dont think it would help anyway as it has a jackshaft as well to get the engine sprocket on the line of the BSA box. But what you might find interesting is how I did the pulleys on the box.
I put the clutch cage in the lathe and removed the cog. I then gave this to a friend with with an engineering shop. He made a rough unfinished double v belt pulley to fit, gave it back to me for me to weld on. This done and back to the shop and he then finished it to correct profile for the v belts. Another point the BSA clutch works just as well dry as wet. Hope this helps.
that's exactly what i needed. My little brother has a machine shop, conveniently located on my property. I'll start with the kawasaki clutch i have and if it doesn't work buy one. thanks again. i love this idea.

grady.

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by cumorglas » Fri May 15, 2009 12:29 am

oldbmw wrote:When setting up a primary drive, if possible try to have the clutch sprocket and belt/chain with a primary number of teeth. This will greatly enhance life . as the engine sprocket is fixed to the crank it will always thump on the same teeth. These are usually made of very good steel.

Triumphs always did this, but seldom documented it. Also Tony Hayward 01244 830776 does belt drive conversions for Triumphs starting at £240. It is possible he might have parts that you may find useful.
it is these goofy periodicities in a three rotor system that enabled you brits to crack and emulate the enigma.

it can still happen with primary numbers but the periods are pretty long. there are some combinations of gears and number of chain links that spread the load evenly and are all even numbers. these aren't combinations likely to actually fit in your primary case though.

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Re: Hitchcock Enfield beltdrive kit

Post by Stuart » Fri May 15, 2009 6:10 pm

Stuart, bombardier (rotax) uses a grease in their 2-stroke snowmobile crankshaft bearings as they stop injecting oil at idle for emission purposes and provide no lube for the crank other than this special very expensive grease. it can withstand high rpm 9000 + and high heat for a very long time. it does not leave the bearing. the part # is 2935500201 isoflex grease, topas nb 52, and comes in a 50 gram tube. i don't know if you have any dealers in your area but it may well be the answer to your problem.
Otto, the grease I'm gonna try is by LPS Laboritories, Illinois. It's ThermaPlex HI Temp Bearing Grease. Resisteant to 392F (200C). If I ever get the gearbox back together I'll let you know how long it lasts in there :D

Stuart

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