VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

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VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby alfgasp » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:17 pm

Hi all
Just started to plan out my 1975 Honda Goldwing GL100 Shaft Drive build with a VW Polo Diesel engine, Possibly a 1.4 but might go bigger.

I've specifically chosen the Goldwing for it size of frame but also as it's a shaft drive and I'm hoping that it won't take too much frame modification to fit the engine.

My first of many questions is...Is the rotation of the output shaft from the VW gearbox the same direction as the input shaft of the Goldwing rear wheel bevel box? I.E. When I select 1-5 gears on the VW gearbox...will that drive the rear Goldwing wheel to move the bike forward?

If this isn't the case and it's all opposite, then is there a solution to make the shafts rotate in the same direction?

Further to this...Once the rotation direction is sorted out, Will the existing gearing ratio of the VW gearbox be ok to drive the Goldwing rear wheel? If not...any suggestions how I might get this sorted out?
I believe the '75 GL1000 shaft drive uses a final reduction ratio of 2.833:1 if this helps anyone. I'm thinking I may need to find someway to make it a 1:1 ratio but not sure how this would be done either.

Thank you in advance for any feedback

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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby the grinch » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:32 pm

hi
I had the same thoughts when i started out. The car is set up to do 60 ish at about 2000 - 2500 rpm at the engine and around 800-850rpm at the wheel depending on what tyre size you use. if you gear that down with another final drive your engine rpm will have to go up by the factor of the final drive in order to get the 60mph. I wanted 1.1 but i have gone for cheep :D and i have over geared my final drive but i have 5 gears to play with. my expierience with a trike i made was it would pull away in top without too much trouble. I dont anticipate getting up to 5th on my project. The gearbox output will be turning anticlockwise as it is fitted to the car on the short shaft and clockwise on the long shaft. so you have 2 options depending on what way you install the engine. hope this is of some help.
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby pietenpol2002 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:28 am

I believe the GL1000s all had a 3.4 final drive.

We're not familiar with the Polo as it wasn't marketed here in the colonies. Is it a transverse design? And do you plan to drive from one side of the differential as done with some of the other VW diesel conversions? Simply needing more info as to your anticipated design.
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby sbrumby » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:03 am

Don't think that a big bike can take a big lump, the Honda GL 1000 is a low flat four, taking out the engine and gearbox will probably not give enough space for the VW unit with conventional clutch and gearbox, Have you given any thought as to how you will select the gears, operate the clutch ? Conversions done with car engines and gearbox usually end up with agricultural 1:1 bevel box then that usually means rigid back end. I don't want to sound negative but a lot of people create bikes that look good but are not useable or can be ridden but are not practical, ie only do 50mph because the ratios are wrong. Shaft drive is great but very hard to alter ratios and very costly.
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby alfgasp » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:43 pm

Yes you're absolutely right, there are going to be some monumental challenges and as yet i'm not 100% sure how I'm going to achieve this successfully...and that is the key really. I want it to be a fully functional bike that rides properly and rolls through the bends too just like a conventional bike.
So, I'm aiming for either a 1.4 VW TDi engine that will be front wheel drive and plan to mount it to the frame longitudinally whilst welding up the diff to allow correct output drive. Now I'm anticipating that I will have to stretch the frame somewhat, but hopefully not too much as I want to keep the wheelbase as short as possible because I still want to maintain good balance and handling performance in the bends.

I'm opting for a front wheel drive engine, whether turbo or non turbo as that will give me the most 'compact' engine & gearbox combination but also I can use either drive shaft to overcome the directional rotation of the final drive shaft (Thanks 'the grinch')

OK so the final drive ratio is something I have to overcome which might be problematic but there are two solutions. Firstly, basically run the engine at higher revs to give the desired rear wheel rpm, but this is not ideal to me and would probably end up with a high rpm engine and an overall slow bike.
I'm aiming to be able to achieve at least 70mph but if I can get 80mph then that would be a bonus. I'm using these as base figures so that I would feel comfortable riding it on a UK motorway for long or short distances.
Secondly, is either to somehow change the gearing in the VW gearbox or put some mid shaft upgearing system. I have it in mind how this could be done but haven't as yet designed it.

So the other question is about clutch operation and gear change. OK, this is where I think I might encounter some other problems, but first of all I'm planning to somehow fashion a 'H box - Suicide Shift' arrangement next to the tank which will enable me to be able to change gears of the VW gearbox. I really don't think I'll have enough hand strength to operate a hand clutch like on a conventional bike unless I can fashion a load reducing pulley system, so my initial thought will be to construct a left foot clutch which will free up the left hand to change gear.

Please bear with me as these are just basic ideas at the moment which I'm hoping will get me there somehow. I'm actually getting the GL1000 rolling chassis on Thursday and I'm sourcing a running VW polo at the moment which I can strip of engine/gearbox and parts then look to see how much room I have and how much initial frame modification I'll need to do. Cheers
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby pietenpol2002 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:49 am

-


As Sam suggests, tucking that lump into a Wing frame will require backing up a good distance and getting a run at it, if you hope to make it fit. And be prepared to make liberal use of what I believe you Brits refer to as the blue tipped chisel.

If you've not seen the ultimate mother of all VW diesel bikes, check the pics below. I believe it's the 1.6L. But, no small bike. Likely the most compact form one could conceive, short of an east/west orientation. And utilizing a right angle gear box for the final drive solves the ratio dilemma as they can be had in whatever ratio you desire. It does however leave you with a hardtail and having used little of the original Wing frame.

SAM_2444.jpg

IMG_7722.jpg

IMG_7721.jpg

IMG_7726.jpg


Should you swap the engine/box end-for-end, you might want to consider some of the options in the link below. Doing so would allow you to adjust your ratios as needed with a simple change in sprocket/pulley and allow you to retain your swingarm suspension. While most of these employ chains, I would prefer a cogged belt drive to reduce maintenance.
That said, have fun. It'll be a great adventure.

https://vk.com/topic-60344065_30250678
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby alfgasp » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:13 am

Thanks Ron, that's great advice too. I'll be heading to the salvage yard this week too to look at different engines/gearboxes and their physical sizes.

The other option I've been told and have now seen, and probably the most sensible I know, would be to mate the Diesel engine with a BMW K gearbox and have the gearing changed.

This would definitely assist the gear changing and clutch issues whilst making it more compact.

As soon as I have more and start getting some photos, I'll post more. I'm sure I've got many more questions to ask

Cheers
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby sbrumby » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:28 am

Just another quick point, a foot left hand clutch means you have always to stop with your right foot down, not always convenient.
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby pietenpol2002 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:54 am

-

a foot left hand clutch means you have always to stop with your right foot down, not always convenient.


Very true. However, Harley saw fit to use it for the first 49 years of production. But then, we are talking Harley Davidson............................
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby the grinch » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:38 pm

Foot clutch will be ok H box means neutral between each gear just bang it out of gear just before you stop if you must put your left foot down. I think a foot clutch will be best route to go if using the car gearbox fairly straight forward.
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby gearhead1951 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:22 am

You could "divorce" the trans from the GW from its engine and use it for the diesel !
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby pietenpol2002 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:59 am

-
You could "divorce" the trans from the GW from its engine and use it for the diesel !


But then you're locked into the 3.4 final drive. You'd be pushing that engine up against the stops to get the desired speeds.
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby alfgasp » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:14 pm

Just a quick update.
So, yesterday I got the GL1000 but all in pieces and broken down to the naked frame, which is actually the perfect place to start. I've also now acquired a VW 1.4TDi Engine and Front Wheel drive gearbox which I'm hoping to incorporate.

Foot clutch is still an option but I'm also looking to use a servo assisted clutch which I could operate from the left hand. I'm also currently looking at options for the gearbox and whether I can marry a BMW K75/80 or K100 Gearbox to the engine. This will then sort out the clutch and gear change issue but I still have the final drive ratio to ponder over.

I'm also looking at not using the GL1000 fuel tank under the seat, but use a smaller home built tank. This way it'll make more space for the car gearbox and final drive if I choose to use that. The frame, I'm planning to modify but also incorporate the engine and gearbox into the overall frame structure.

So far, on paper the major issue is going to be connecting the gearbox (whichever type I use) to the final drive at the rear wheel and adjusting the drive ratio which I think I can solve by a mid shaft spur gear.

I'll be in the workshop tomorrow setting up the build table and the rolling chassis, then I get the engine and gearbox next week, so that's when the fun and games start. But I think before I start to chop anything up, the first thing I'll do is rig up a fuel supply and try to get the engine started and make sure it runs, then move onto test fitting into the frame.

Be back soon
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby pietenpol2002 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:46 pm

-

Of course you could always cut your own final drive gears. But then, oil consumption might approach fuel consumption.


Final Drive Oiler.jpg
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby alfgasp » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:02 pm

OK have now got the donor bike (bought in pieces) and I'm working through it to make sure I have what I need. Last night I got my VW 1.4 TDi and started to work out dimensions and look at places to chop the frame to accommodate it.

All seems plausible but then I got my thinking cap on and that's where it all went wrong. I started to investigate the electrics of the engine and primarily the ECU and all of the sensors that could stop the engine running properly or prevent it from starting. It seems there are more than I realised and many of them are mounted on the car, that it would have come from, and most of them seem to require a specific component which will not work on any kind of motorcycle set up.

I thought I was on the right track with the TDi engine because of its relative small size, but this may not work at all now. So unless I can find a VW 1.4 TDi wizard who can help me with it, I may have to return to my original thought and get a non turbo diesel engine instead.

If anyone knows of a VW TDi expert who can help me or suggest how I might be able to bypass the sensors and fool the ECU that all is well, then please contact me or if anyone can suggest a non turbo diesel engine that is powerful enough to achieve up to 70mph and any gearbox combinations...that would also be a big help.

Lots more research needed now
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby coachgeo » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:40 am

the pro's for TDI's seem to collect at
http://forums.tdiclub.com/
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby alfgasp » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:10 am

Thanks, I'll take a look now
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby the grinch » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:47 am

Alf,
have you got the ECU what year was the car and can you get the bits off it. what is the engine code.
my build was the same at the start but I broke the car i stripped everything from it I kept all the sensors. it is a fly by wire pump I needed the throttle pedal, the key and the transponder ring, map sensor and the EGR solinoid and the obd port you may need a few more bits but you can make them work my throttle will be a cable going into a box with the pedal electrics. I got the engine running on the floor befor I started. you will need a wiring diagram for the engine.
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby alfgasp » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:30 pm

Thanks Alex, yep this is my problem as I only have engine + ancillaries, gearbox, ECU and steering column with some electrics. I didn't get anything else off the car, so I now know that I need all of that extra stuff in order for it to work.
My original plan was to buy a running car with the desired engine, then rape it for all the parts I would need, but I saw this engine/gearbox for sale for a good price and took a punt. Should've stuck to my original plan I think....Bugger!

I think I've got some of that but I'll need a throttle pedal which I can source quite easily and glow plug wiring harness. I'll take a closer look tonight and check the engine code, then see if it's feasible.

Cheers
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby the grinch » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:47 pm

Alf,
have you got the key. for me this would be the most important part as most of the sensors will be on the engine maybe airflow sensor and map sensor and low pressure pump fitted out side of the engine. Its to early to give it up yet as you have it in front of you i think it would be possible. What is the engine code and what year car
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby alfgasp » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:04 pm

Yes, I've got the key and think most of the sensors may indeed be on there. I don't have the code or year to hand at the moment but I'll check tonight. If I can find a way to get it started over the next few days, then I can proceed. I'll take some more photos of the engine over the next few days and post them up.

Be back soon
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby alfgasp » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:18 pm

GL1000 bike parts and frame on build platform as I work through all the parts that I need and work out what is missing
IMG_9757.jpg
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby alfgasp » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:29 pm

Engine arrived but now trying to work out how to bench test it before I start cutting up the frame
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby alfgasp » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:36 pm

Just a few more photos of the engine. Please feel free to try and identify anything that might be missing...

IMG_9780.jpg
IMG_9771.jpg
IMG_9774.jpg
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby alfgasp » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:54 pm

When it rains...it pours!!

The engine debacle continues as I've just found out that I need to be able to pressurise the fuel supply in order for it to work as well. The engine, I have now found out has come from a 1999 - 2001 VW Polo with the 1.4 TDi engine. I am looking for a throttle pedal and sensor but no idea about this fuel pressurisation
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby touchwoodsden » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:10 pm

On my Merc Smart CDI BMW K100 I used an Aprilia Shiver fly by wire throttle. Cable pulled from twistgrip. I hada VW polo throttle which I could have used but the Priller one was easier. Might be able to find the VW one and sell. Cost me about 25 quids from memeory
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby alfgasp » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:43 pm

Well it looks like the VW Polo 1.4 TDi adventure may be over as I trawled over everywhere I can think of to be able to make this work but I think it just might be beyond me, certainly will take a load of cash to find a solution.

So back to my alternative plan. I'm trying to sell the TDi engine/gearbox etc complete or for parts but I may retain the turbo and pipework and anything else I can think of. I'm now looking at a digger engine like a Lombardini, then to match that up to a BMW bike gearbox & Clutch. This just might be within my capability but ECUs and electrical are not my strong points so hence the change of idea. I still think it would've been a great idea but in hindsight I should've bought a complete car and took all the parts I needed, but space and time wouldn't let me do that so far. It's gutting, but I'm just missing too many of the electrical parts, loom and sensors in order for it to work...also a complete lack of ECUs and tuning is the big road block.

Well...onwards and upwards.
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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby the grinch » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:52 am

Alf

Its a shame you can't get a car with a duff engine it would be straight forward then you could strip everything in a day. There are plenty of scrap dealers that will pick up for free to get rid of it. Wiring is not that difficult realy if you get a good diagram for the engine management all the pins will be marked and all the components too. You have already got the engine gearbox and frame. How much will another engine cost and what about the conversion and all the parts needed. The VW engine looks like a nice lump to go in the frame. The forum has plenty of people on here going through problems some of them may have solutions to help you overcome these set backs. I find that when building the bikes there is often somthing that causes a problem but it is often rewarding finding the sulution to sort them out and progress with the original plans. It may take a bit of time but when you get past them the build will get back on track. Ebay do elsawin for about £10 this should have all the wiring you need or if you can find somone with a autodata disk at a garage the should be able to print off the engine management wiring diagram.

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Re: VW Polo Diesel Engine & Gearbox to Goldwing Shaft Drive

Postby Mouse » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:33 am

That's a shame about the 1400TDI engine. I'm currently working on a VW 1900TDI bike project and have a few tricks up my sleeve to get it to work in a bike. However that has the older and easier to control VP37 injection pump.

I'm not familiar with the 1400.
It's hard to see from your photos but is it the more modern common rail injection or the older VP37 mechanical pump with Electric servo fly-by-wire control?
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1900 Diesel Bike being rebuilt with better clutch control.
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